Mormons to Professor: “Later”
June 13th, 2006Normally, I’d just link to something like this, but I want to hear from you all about the BYU professor who lost his job for disagreeing with the Mormon Church’s recent gay marriage amendment hoo ha.
“In accordance with the order of the church, we do not consider it our responsibility to correct, contradict or dismiss official pronouncements of the church.”
In accordance with me, that is a recipe for losing the smart people. o
June 13th, 2006 at 5:09 pm
I heard an interview with him on RadioWest with doug fabrizio, he was an amazing speaker, very level headed and dealt with some very heated questions. Do you know of any way to contact him or show support for his fantastic effort of speaking out angainst this injustice?
June 13th, 2006 at 5:23 pm
I’m astonished by the quote at the end of the article.
“I have no desire to be anything but a member of the church,”
That is some serious programming. My thoroughly agnostic approach toward life would cause me depart with a full-eagle salute if an employer dismissed me over a moral stance which was at odds with their own. In fact, it has on at least one occasion. I can’t quite wrap my skull around wanting to be part of a church whose power structure would actively harm me for holding or stating a belief. That just seems contrary to the message of a benificent and loving deity.
I’m wondering if he’s been effectively blacklisted in the SLC region. I realize that the LDS doesn’t run “everything” but the church elders have long waged a strong power to influence the business/political community.
Just my thoughts on the whole thing, but I’m just a devout human being.
June 13th, 2006 at 6:31 pm
I grew up in a very liberal Christian church. Liberal like, evolution - fine, gay or straight - fine, differing beliefs - fine (our minister would invite leaders from different religions & we’d share our respective folklore).
My Mother is a cultural anthropologist & let me go to church when I wanted to - she ran errands while I got my religion on. Anywho, I grew up falsely thinking that churchlife was about loving & accepting eachother. I figured out in early adulthood that most churches are really only about judgement, damnation and guilt. Now I consider myself agnostic at best.
Amen (no offense) for sharing this.
June 13th, 2006 at 6:58 pm
Having only stepped foot on BYU’s campus for the occasional conference, I know little about the university. However, I always believed that college was the premiere environment for questioning the world around us - for bringing up controversial topics and debating them in an open forum. University is supposed to drive students to THINK, not just regurgitate information.
BYU doesn’t seem like a true university to me, but another forum for the preaching and teaching of the LDS gospel. So sad that they are joining the Christian ranks and preaching hate. And how truly sad for this man.
(Bracing herself for the rebuke of LDS faithful now.)
June 13th, 2006 at 7:10 pm
I’m one who strongly opposed the gay marriage ammendment, and was quite dissappointed in the church’s support of it.
But when you sign on as a professor at a place like BYU, put yourself in a tough spot in terms of honest inquiry vs. supporting doctrine.
What surprises me more is that professors would allow themselves to be in that situation to begin with. Which I guess is just a long way of saying, yeah, that is a formula for losing the smartest ones… or not getting them in the first place.
June 13th, 2006 at 7:37 pm
I agree with Workman. How can you honestly think you’ll be “teaching” (if it can be called that there) at an institution like BYU without the political, and especially religious, repercussions. When you take a job in such a restrictive environment, this kind of reaction is to be expected if you try to demonstrate you have your own mind.
I don’t know how they can be considered an institute of higher learning. Any private college suffers some level of influence from the powers that be, but when those powers be the Mormons, look out.
June 13th, 2006 at 7:49 pm
This is a poor showing for all concerned.
Mr. Nielsen’s piece is here — http://www.sltrib.com/search/ci_3896635 — people who already agree with him will like it, but no one else will find a particularly strong, or even coherent, argument.
But the answer to bad arguments is good arguments, not sanctions, and universities are supposed to strengthen minds, not propagate orthodoxies. Firing this guy certainly suggests that the Mormons can’t formulate a persuasive reply. And their inability to answer such a poor critique certainly makes me wonder how much thought they’ve given this in the first place.
June 13th, 2006 at 7:57 pm
Hi. I’m Doug, and I’m a recovering BYU student. (HI DOUG!)
Ugh. I’m so not surprised. There are a lot like him. I just finished listening to former LDS institute director Grant Palmer tell his story (you can download it here: http://mormonstories.org/?p=92). Same thing. Considers himself LDS, but the Church disfellowshipped him. Or Michael Quinn–same thing. Quinn and the September Six are an interesting subject on their own:
http://lds-mormon.com/sepsix.shtml
If internet doesn’t destroy the church, the brain drain and subsequent implosion certainly will.
June 13th, 2006 at 8:26 pm
I wondered how long it would take, didn’t figure it would take much time to find out he was fired. It’s almost like this guy was asking for it, though. I agree with what he said, but realized he must not value his job much. I disagree with the person who said that his argument was not coherent. I thought it made perfect sense, but maybe that’s because I grew up Mormon and I do agree with him.
June 13th, 2006 at 8:35 pm
Firestorm controversies rarely come with simple solutions. It’s easy to sit back and think so, however that’s rarely the case.
I’m going to play devil’s advocate for a moment.
I don’t support the firing, but ponder this: what would happen within the church and/or the Utah Valley/BYU community if the guy wasn’t fired? This could have been a political decision — a lesser-of-two-evils thing — at least in the eyes of BYU.
We can sit back and think to ourselves “if he wasn’t fired, others within BYU who oppose the gay marriage amendment would stand up and speak, the sentiment would spread like a virus, the Middle East would finally find peace, dogs would sleep with cats, blah blah blah,” but would that REALLY happen? Or would the pro-amendment crowd in Utah Valley revolt, pull their kids out of BYU, create a bigger firestorm within the church, etc.? I really wonder.
Again, I oppose the firing, but I can’t help but think BYU felt its hands were tied. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if there are more teachers (and students, why not?) that are quietly applauding this guy’s opposition to the amendment.
Baby steps, baby steps…
June 13th, 2006 at 8:48 pm
Erat, that’s my point. No dialogue. Especially at a university. I don’t see any steps at all, much less anything one could call baby steps.
June 13th, 2006 at 8:49 pm
wow! the mormon church is giving out free hoo ha’s with its stance against gay marriage? i’m sure the men and lesbian mormons (are there any out there representing?) are lining up.
“gay amendment? why of course. may i have my hoo ha now?”
ah levity. ah beer.
June 13th, 2006 at 11:54 pm
Unfortunately, things of this nature happen at private religious universities more than we are aware.
I used to work for a Seventh-Day Adventist university. I’ve heard stories of gay students being kicked out of the university; of managers caught drinking alcohol at a conference and being severely reprimanded afterwards.
One thing that really bugged me about working there is that in the employee handbook, there was a section stating, Sexual contact is between a man and a woman joined in marriage. Why the heck did they have to put it in the employee handbook? Totally unnecessary, but hey, you got to make sure that the gays and those living in sin know where they stand.
All that being said, I really enjoyed working there, and it is a great place to work (great benefits, among other things). Just unfortunate that they have to go sticking their noses in where they don’t belong.
But, (to get back to the point) this university as well at BYU are private, religious institutions. They are not bound uphold any anti-discrimination laws (which, in California, include gays and lesbians. In Utah, there are probably no such protections for gays and lesbians).
So, the question is, should religious institutions be held to the same anti-discrimination standards as other private institutions?
Liz
p.s. totally sorry if i’m not making sense- i’m tired.
June 14th, 2006 at 2:07 am
As I see it, he should have been fired for no less than three reasons:
1) He committed treason. While he may have been working at a university, it is still a privately held university by a corporation that is selling a product. And every university sells a product. His position of professor makes him a representative of that corporation. If one of my employees endorsed my competitor’s product in a public forum as he did, I’d fire him too. Personally, I’m surprised they are waiting for the semester to end. That just gives him time to do more damage.
2) He committed plagiarism. His opinion piece was directly lifted from Alma 30. Patterning your arguments after those of an antichrist, and a very famous one too (among mormons), is probably not the best choice for demonstrating your loyalty.
3) He was incompetent. As a philosophy professor, he should have known the fallacy of the philosophical arguments he was making invoking authoritarianism, rationalism, pragmatism and empiricism in an effort to confront divine revelation. Only divine revelation can trump that obtained from divine revelation.
One shouldn’t confuse smart with hubris.
Sebastian
June 14th, 2006 at 7:36 am
Sebastian, what about the divine revelation I had that BYU is based on Alma 30 (part of the Book of Mormon)?
Or the divine revelation I had that all humans are children of God and as consenting adults, they should be allowed to marry another consenting adult?
June 14th, 2006 at 7:56 am
It’s hard to comment very intelligently on this since I know so little about the Mormon Church and about BYU. A few things, however:
First, Nielsen is a part-time faculty member, which suggests to me that he does not have tenure and is the equivalent of an adjunct instructor (I assume, based on his brief bio, that he is a full-time consultant and teaches “on the side”). I would imagine that the University would have even less tolerance for wave-making from adjuncts and, in turn, Nielsen would have less of an expectation of permanence with his job there than someone with tenure. So, even though his editorial is very watered-down (and not all that rhetorically sound, even though I, of course, agree with the ultimate premise), I would think he would have known as he was writing it that he would be canned as a result. Whether there’s an articulated policy about faculty politicking or opinion-voicing or not, it must be fairly clear to anyone who works for BYU that they’re working for the Church and must generally be loyal to the Church’s policies and doctrine.
All of this begs the question, do faculty members only achieve tenure at BYU after demonstrating their devotion to the straight and narrow Church party line?
Second, I’m curious: what is the atmosphere like generally at BYU among students and faculty? What is the level of dialogue like in the classroom? Are ideas that are outside Church doctrine explored at all? Or even tolerated?
It seems to an outsider like the school wouldn’t encourage the kind of free-wheeling expression as many liberal universities do. Although, of course, even liberal universities have been known to suppress speech that isn’t liberal enough - not to the extent of hate speech, but, for example, there was a foofaraw a couple of years ago at Columbia when a professor expressed anti-Israel sentiments and was the target of an investigation (and a documentary film), although the President of the University made public statements in support of absolute academic freedom of speech, and the professor was retained (though I don’t believe he has tenure).
Finally, just an observation: did anyone notice how polite both the editorial and the article are? Nielsen’s is as gentle as can be, and all couched in God-stuff and whatnot, and the article describes him being “let go” and how he “would not be re-hired.” I have no substantive comment on this, but it stood out. I almost want to shake them both - come on, let’s have it out! Let’s have a real debate here, people!
June 14th, 2006 at 8:04 am
russweasel said “I canít quite wrap my skull around wanting to be part of a church whose power structure would actively harm me for holding or stating a belief. That just seems contrary to the message of a benificent and loving deity.”
I never found the god of the mormons to be “a benificent and loving deity,” and so didn’t remain in the church once I was able to make my own moral and theological decisions.
as for valuing the job of part time instructor at “the Y”, I have been a part time instructor at a different 4 year college, and the pay alone will make you not value the position. The joy of shaping and inspiring young minds, the only other reason to attempt this difficult position, is not one which is encouraged at BYU.
Were I asked I would say that this dissent did not cost him anything valuable (the job), and perhaps now he can find something much more worthwhile, the opportunity to think, feel, evaluate, and decide for one’s self. Perhaps he will even find “a benificent and loving deity.”
June 14th, 2006 at 8:24 am
As much I think the guy getting fired is blow to free thought and expression, there is another matter he should have rememebred: Don’t bite the hand that feeds you. I work for…well lets just say the military as a historian and there are LOTS of things I would love to say about current war policy . But thats not place. My job is to stick to the history (anything before 1960 is fair game in my mind) and I like my job to much to lose it. He should have known better.
June 14th, 2006 at 8:41 am
I’d just like to make a few comments on this and respond to a few questions raised by other commenters.
First, This Professor knew what he was getting himself into before being employed by BYU, while being employed by BYU, before writing his Op-Ed piece and for the last week, was just waiting to get the response from BYU. He admitted as much in the SL Trib article. It should have been no surprise to him that he had violated BYU policy (whether it is written policy or unwritten, I don’t know, but it is certainly well known).
Second, I was a student at BYU during the 1990’s and have to say the I don’t believe Jon gives BYU a fair shake. Certainly, BYU has the tendency to fire Professors who speak out against church policy and doctrine. But, BYU (an extension of the LDS Church) feels it must keep a handle on dissent. Does it go too far? Probably. But it’s a difficult situation to be in.
Third, as for academic freedom and the ability to have freedom of expression at BYU? I’d be willing to bet that many of the colleges and universities that are so “open” and “free” are really not promoting the exploration of all ideas. There are certain topics and stances that are off limits in these forums as well.
BYU, while it has it’s problems, isn’t as bad a some make it out to be. And Jon, I frankly, disagree that the LDS Church preaches hate in regards to homosexuals. It’s simply not true.
June 14th, 2006 at 8:45 am
It is just one more thing for those of us who attended BYU to be embarrassed about. Thank goodness I live in Miami and people here donít even know where Utah is much less any of the issues going on there.
When the Mormon Church takes a strong stance on something that is so controversial, they should expect conflicting ideas. What happened to encouraging the members to seek out the truth for themselves? They always claim that is what they are doing, but really they want people to follow blindly.
June 14th, 2006 at 8:47 am
Lawyerish: It doesn’t matter whether you’re part time, full time, tenured, department chair, dean, provost or president. Public dissent of an offical mormon proclamation from within is simply not tolerated. He could have been a janitor for the Podunk Second Ward and the outcome would have been the same. Anyone familiar with the mormon church knew he was out of a job once they were two sentences into his op-ed.
I have little doubt he could have been more pointed and forceful in his rhetoric, but sugar coating his bitter pill with feigned syurpy concern and deference to God was the only shot he had at keeping his job–after all, that is the way of his superiors. At best, it saved him from being booted the following Monday.
As he points out in the article, his big worry now is whether he’ll be allowed to remain in his church. This is where they’ll give him a chance to back down. If he does (and promises to be a good little sheep henceforth), he’ll stay in the fold. Otherwise, he’ll be looking for more than a new job.
June 14th, 2006 at 9:10 am
The “End Times” will surely be brought about by the LDS, the Southern Baptist Convention, and the Vatican putting aside their religious differences to combine their political empires. Like Transformers.
I just literally made myself shudder with that thought.
June 14th, 2006 at 9:20 am
I’m not surprised in the least. I attended an all male, Catholic high school. One kid was put on suspension for bringing a guy to the prom [three days...2 points off each class's final grade per day of suspension]. Also, we couldn’t have a GSA because that insinuated being gay was okay. We could only have a ‘Always Our Brothers & Sisters’, which was a group that said ‘we still love you though you’re gay’.
I had several gay teachers, but none of them could be out because it was a Catholic school.
That all being said, I applaud this man for his actions and voicing his opinion. Going to a religious school, he probably knew the possible outcome of his thoughts. But I believe that the attention he’s brought to the subject is well worth it, and I’m sure he agrees.-
June 14th, 2006 at 9:33 am
I find it interesting that all you ExMo’s and Mo-haters out there seem to have conveniently removed from your memory is that the man who led the opposition on the Senate floor regarding this same sex marriage amendment was Harry Reid, an active Mormon. It would appear that Harry “express[ed] [himself] on this urgent matter”. Bravo. Wonderful. Good job Harry! Way to go!!!
Harry loves bloggers, btw: http://tinyurl.com/pwype
Contrary to what some of you think, we (active Mo’s) are not a bunch of mindless trolls. I’m sure that Nielsen knew exactly what he was doing when he wrote this letter (unlike Real World Julie who wanted all kinds of sympathy when she was ousted from BYU for violating the honor code on national TV…well, duh!)
For once I agree with Sebastian. What he (Nielsen) did was treason. I’ve never been employed by BYU, but I would imagine that somewhere in the fine print of the contract there would be something stating as much (in the same way that I have signed contracts that included penalties for disclosure and whatnot).
The funny thing is that when I heard about this, my first thought was “How long will it take Jon to post?” Sure enough, I clicked over to blurbomat and you HAD already posted. Damn RSS junkie!
And Doug, the internet destroying the church? Now THAT’s pretty freakin’ funny! I’m sure if the church survived Missouri in the 1840’s it’ll be able to handle this internet thingy just fine.
June 14th, 2006 at 10:04 am
Damn Pat, you beat me to the punch. Realize people, BYU is a “private” school. I opted not to even try to enroll at BYU for this exact reason. My religious belief is just that, MINE. I don’t need my educational institution dictating to me what or what not to believe. BYU isn’t the only private institution out there either. But, for one reason or another, there are people who prefer that environment. Its those that immerse themselves in the BYU culture and come out blasting it that make me irate. Come on, you knew what you were getting in to. Quit your whining.